GrandpaSteve
Sustaining Member
Yes. Usually let out about 3:1 to set it, then 5:1 for normal anchoring. 7:1 was because I knew the bigger wind was coming that night. 5:1 seems like a steady set.
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Anchor poll
- Thread starter gareth harris
- Start date
Yes. Usually let out about 3:1 to set it, then 5:1 for normal anchoring. 7:1 was because I knew the bigger wind was coming that night. 5:1 seems like a steady set.
I note that site visitors regularly find/view this thread, so perhaps a 'bump' for the benefit of many newer members is in order.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Happy Thanksgiving!
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Puget sailor
Member II
Ericson 32-3 with a 37 lb Sarca Excel here.
My boat came with a 22 lb Bruce. I don’t trust the Bruce to set on hard and kelpy bottoms, and it’s small for the boat.
After much research I ordered a 37 lb Sarca Excel. Seems to be capable in almost anything Puget Sound can throw at it. We have very varied bottoms from hard and rocky to primordial ooze and everything in between. Weeds and kelp are common. We also often need to anchor on sloping bottoms, so a very fast and reliable reset is essential. Strong tides, 16’ tide range and frequently reversing winds all add to the drama.
The 37 lb Sarca is a bit heavy, and I will need to raise the furler drum up about a foot make it functional on the bow roller. Currently I stow it shank first in the anchor locker with a slit open tennis ball over the end to protect the locker bottom. After it’s set in there I pile in the chain and then the rode. Not ideal, and a workout. It sets instantly and so far after once season of random use has never shifted once set at all. I found an an anchor watch gps phone app to monitor position while sleeping. Works great and is free. Easy to adjust the scope and anchor position settings on the fly. Only drawback is I consistently forget to silence the alarm before rowing away in the dinghy resulting in a noisy “ship floats off” alert, since the phone is with me.
30 years ago I had a 30’ yawl that came with a classic Danforth HT, so I used it. That was a very common anchor back in New Jersey, and easy to manage. One time I retrieved it and found a very specific sized rock stuck between fluke and shank, rendering it incapable of resetting if flipped over as designed. I think a certain sized clam could do the same, so I don’t trust that style anchor any more. I do keep one in the aft locker for emergencies and as a lunch hook.
resources:
I can’t recommend “sv panope” reviews highly enough. It’s anchor porn extraordinaire. I need to see the guy a tip. He’s also near me, so the bottoms he tests on (more than one) are highly relevant.
The anchor watch app I have on my iPhone is called Anchor Alarm. So far it works and is simple enough but also flexible enough. Takes a bit to figure out where the boat is in relation to the hook after it’s set, but easy to both move the position of the anchor on the app to reflect reality, and to change the range of scope circle to reflect reality after moving the boat around once the hook is set. I sleep better having it.
My boat came with a 22 lb Bruce. I don’t trust the Bruce to set on hard and kelpy bottoms, and it’s small for the boat.
After much research I ordered a 37 lb Sarca Excel. Seems to be capable in almost anything Puget Sound can throw at it. We have very varied bottoms from hard and rocky to primordial ooze and everything in between. Weeds and kelp are common. We also often need to anchor on sloping bottoms, so a very fast and reliable reset is essential. Strong tides, 16’ tide range and frequently reversing winds all add to the drama.
The 37 lb Sarca is a bit heavy, and I will need to raise the furler drum up about a foot make it functional on the bow roller. Currently I stow it shank first in the anchor locker with a slit open tennis ball over the end to protect the locker bottom. After it’s set in there I pile in the chain and then the rode. Not ideal, and a workout. It sets instantly and so far after once season of random use has never shifted once set at all. I found an an anchor watch gps phone app to monitor position while sleeping. Works great and is free. Easy to adjust the scope and anchor position settings on the fly. Only drawback is I consistently forget to silence the alarm before rowing away in the dinghy resulting in a noisy “ship floats off” alert, since the phone is with me.
30 years ago I had a 30’ yawl that came with a classic Danforth HT, so I used it. That was a very common anchor back in New Jersey, and easy to manage. One time I retrieved it and found a very specific sized rock stuck between fluke and shank, rendering it incapable of resetting if flipped over as designed. I think a certain sized clam could do the same, so I don’t trust that style anchor any more. I do keep one in the aft locker for emergencies and as a lunch hook.
resources:
I can’t recommend “sv panope” reviews highly enough. It’s anchor porn extraordinaire. I need to see the guy a tip. He’s also near me, so the bottoms he tests on (more than one) are highly relevant.
The anchor watch app I have on my iPhone is called Anchor Alarm. So far it works and is simple enough but also flexible enough. Takes a bit to figure out where the boat is in relation to the hook after it’s set, but easy to both move the position of the anchor on the app to reflect reality, and to change the range of scope circle to reflect reality after moving the boat around once the hook is set. I sleep better having it.
Good stuff. Today's anchors are much improved and new boats are designed for them, which sure can't be said of Ericsons.
Thanks @Loren Beach for bumping this thread... otherwise I would not have run across it!
I have a question:
- I may size-up my main anchor (maybe to a 15kg Racnor given this thread), but long before that I want to replace my primary rode and chain; both of unknown age and as a former climber I like to know my lines' provenance.
Hinz (see below) is very clear that one should be using 3-strand rode for its shock-absorbing capacity, and since I have no windlass (nor am I interested in installing one; I anchor seldom -- anchor is mainly safety gear), it is also lighter than chain. But a hassle to handle as it gets stiff/hockles... so then braided... ?? Hinz is against it.
--> Q1: Suggestions appreciated re: appropriate rode type (3-strand/braided and also diameter, for an E34) and chain (length/size). Is everyone avoiding 3-stranded and going for braided?
I am unlikely to anchor in over 50' of water, so was thinking 300' rode and 50' chain (for 7:1 max); for boats up to 40', Heinz recommends 1/2" dia 3-strand nylon and 5/16 chain. I may eventually attach to a 15kg Racnor, but for now the 22 lb Plow.
--> Q2: Chafing gear... what do you use?
I ask because 1/2" 3-stranded nylon should have sufficient breaking strength for any of those anchors, and is cheap(er) than braided... but I had 1/2" chafe through on a dockline (in only a day / during a single storm (mild, in a marina), which has never happened to me with my 5/8" 3-strand docklines. So I am nervous about the 1/2" rode even though strength should be ok, and in fact probaby better not to oversize since you presumably lose the stetch as you do and get more shock-loading). Maybe the answer is 1/2" rode and good chafing gear, but I need advice on that too.
Many thanks!
PS: To also contribute to the conversation,
I have (E34-2) a:
- 22 lb Plow on the bow roller (50' 5/16 chain and 100' nylon braided rode)
- 7 lb Fortress (Danforth) FX-11 with 15' 1/4" chain and 150' 1/2" 3-strand nylon rode as the back-up/lunch hook
Separately,
In case anyone else stumbles across this thread (which now seems to date back 15 years)... Hinz is worth the read, even if dated (no discussion of the Rocna anchor). Surprisingly, it's not boring:
--> Complete Book of anchoring and Mooring, 2nd ed., by Earl Hinz.
As an example of improtant bits in the book,
- 'Captron' (page 2 of this thread) says, "... but tend to screw themselves into the bottom.... The anchor chain had scribed a nice level 270 degree partial-circle maybe 100 feet in diameter around the anchor." Hinz makes it crystal clear that one needs a swivel on the anchor (properly installed, too; c.f. sad story on p. 110), in line with the shackle(s), to avoid damage/loss of the anchor/breaking the shackle when swinging around.
- On all these systems it appears to be the connecting elements (swivels, shackles) that have the lowest load ratings... often roughly matching the holding power (in soft mud) for the anchors of a given size. The chain and rode are typically kept well within working load ranges (nowhere near breaking loads, which are 5-6X higher) by the weak links of the shackles/swivels, which I found sort of interesting. Seems to be no real reason (other than chafing) to oversize chain/rode diameters, and the added stretch of lower-sized line may make it in fact better to not oversize. Chain may be different, since the weight is part of the benefit, so oversizing there may make sense... just not for strength reasons.
I have a question:
- I may size-up my main anchor (maybe to a 15kg Racnor given this thread), but long before that I want to replace my primary rode and chain; both of unknown age and as a former climber I like to know my lines' provenance.
Hinz (see below) is very clear that one should be using 3-strand rode for its shock-absorbing capacity, and since I have no windlass (nor am I interested in installing one; I anchor seldom -- anchor is mainly safety gear), it is also lighter than chain. But a hassle to handle as it gets stiff/hockles... so then braided... ?? Hinz is against it.
--> Q1: Suggestions appreciated re: appropriate rode type (3-strand/braided and also diameter, for an E34) and chain (length/size). Is everyone avoiding 3-stranded and going for braided?
I am unlikely to anchor in over 50' of water, so was thinking 300' rode and 50' chain (for 7:1 max); for boats up to 40', Heinz recommends 1/2" dia 3-strand nylon and 5/16 chain. I may eventually attach to a 15kg Racnor, but for now the 22 lb Plow.
--> Q2: Chafing gear... what do you use?
I ask because 1/2" 3-stranded nylon should have sufficient breaking strength for any of those anchors, and is cheap(er) than braided... but I had 1/2" chafe through on a dockline (in only a day / during a single storm (mild, in a marina), which has never happened to me with my 5/8" 3-strand docklines. So I am nervous about the 1/2" rode even though strength should be ok, and in fact probaby better not to oversize since you presumably lose the stetch as you do and get more shock-loading). Maybe the answer is 1/2" rode and good chafing gear, but I need advice on that too.
Many thanks!
PS: To also contribute to the conversation,
I have (E34-2) a:
- 22 lb Plow on the bow roller (50' 5/16 chain and 100' nylon braided rode)
- 7 lb Fortress (Danforth) FX-11 with 15' 1/4" chain and 150' 1/2" 3-strand nylon rode as the back-up/lunch hook
Separately,
In case anyone else stumbles across this thread (which now seems to date back 15 years)... Hinz is worth the read, even if dated (no discussion of the Rocna anchor). Surprisingly, it's not boring:
--> Complete Book of anchoring and Mooring, 2nd ed., by Earl Hinz.
As an example of improtant bits in the book,
- 'Captron' (page 2 of this thread) says, "... but tend to screw themselves into the bottom.... The anchor chain had scribed a nice level 270 degree partial-circle maybe 100 feet in diameter around the anchor." Hinz makes it crystal clear that one needs a swivel on the anchor (properly installed, too; c.f. sad story on p. 110), in line with the shackle(s), to avoid damage/loss of the anchor/breaking the shackle when swinging around.
- On all these systems it appears to be the connecting elements (swivels, shackles) that have the lowest load ratings... often roughly matching the holding power (in soft mud) for the anchors of a given size. The chain and rode are typically kept well within working load ranges (nowhere near breaking loads, which are 5-6X higher) by the weak links of the shackles/swivels, which I found sort of interesting. Seems to be no real reason (other than chafing) to oversize chain/rode diameters, and the added stretch of lower-sized line may make it in fact better to not oversize. Chain may be different, since the weight is part of the benefit, so oversizing there may make sense... just not for strength reasons.
I found and use this for anchoring; https://chafepro.com/chafepro/chafe-pro-yacht-series/ and for both seasonal mooring pennants (primary and backup). Quite happy with it, user friendly and durable. I store xtras but just finished third season with original purchase. That's June to November on a mooring with no apparent degradation from abrasion tho the guards do get rather stiff from the weather/sun.
Puget sailor
Member II
Thoughts on rode:
I’d never put a 30’ or larger boat on a 1/2” line. It’s not the breaking strength in theory, it’s the breaking strength after some damage that matters. Chaffe and wear during a storm are very likely. As safety gear, it needs to work in a crisis. Keep a light lunch hook separate. The bower is there to save the boat or provide good night sleep. Think engine fails powering into an inlet, or fear failure with a threatening lee shore etc. At that moment getting a serious hook down to buy time is a potential life saver and boat saver.
Smaller line is also more difficult to handle and grip. One of the difficulties of modern anchors is that they can set very deep, and retrieval can be tough. Bigger line is easier to haul on.
i considered some of the newer braided anchor lines for easy stowing and reduced kink tendencies, but in the end, I do really like three strand for its elasticity and apparent ability to resist chafe damage of adequately sized. It’s basically three lines in one, and even if one is compromised the other two likely are not. Its twisted structure also seems to be part of its excellent elasticity and shock absorbing capability, since it can sort of unscrew itself a recover when loaded. I’ve tried to use three strand to haul things with a come along, it really does stretch a LOT. It should not be used that way since to stores too much energy. But in an anchor line that’s exactly what is wanted.
I’d never put a 30’ or larger boat on a 1/2” line. It’s not the breaking strength in theory, it’s the breaking strength after some damage that matters. Chaffe and wear during a storm are very likely. As safety gear, it needs to work in a crisis. Keep a light lunch hook separate. The bower is there to save the boat or provide good night sleep. Think engine fails powering into an inlet, or fear failure with a threatening lee shore etc. At that moment getting a serious hook down to buy time is a potential life saver and boat saver.
Smaller line is also more difficult to handle and grip. One of the difficulties of modern anchors is that they can set very deep, and retrieval can be tough. Bigger line is easier to haul on.
i considered some of the newer braided anchor lines for easy stowing and reduced kink tendencies, but in the end, I do really like three strand for its elasticity and apparent ability to resist chafe damage of adequately sized. It’s basically three lines in one, and even if one is compromised the other two likely are not. Its twisted structure also seems to be part of its excellent elasticity and shock absorbing capability, since it can sort of unscrew itself a recover when loaded. I’ve tried to use three strand to haul things with a come along, it really does stretch a LOT. It should not be used that way since to stores too much energy. But in an anchor line that’s exactly what is wanted.
We recently upgraded to a 44lb Vulcan on 100’ 5/16 G4 + 250’ 5/8” 8 plait nylon. Been very happy with it. Upgraded from a 35lb CQR on 50’ 3/8” BBB + 150’ 5/8” 3 strand nylon. The new chain is way easier to haul even with the heavier anchor and the 8 plait stacks and runs really cleanly from the anchor locker. While I understand @Puget sailor concern about chafe I‘ll take the ease of handling 8 plait every day and make sure we have good chafe gear out when it’s blowing.
p.gazibara
Member III
I have skippered boats with a wide range of anchors. By far the spade style anchors (original)Rocna/Mantus/Sarca/Manson are far superior to all other designs as an all around primary anchor. especially if you re in a tidal area where the anchor must reset.
We have slept soundly with our 35lb Mantus on Cinderella for 2+ years "on the hook". Left the boat twice on the hook for extended periods under watch of locals and never had any issue. There were three instances where the anchor drug. Two of the times I didn't have enough rode out for the conditions (I generally default to 3:1). Once we were anchored in close to shore in maybe 3m (I maybe had 9m of chain out, shame on me), but we were in close to other boats near shore with no fetch in the tuamotus. We happened to be jury rigging the mast after we lost a shroud. We ended up catching a friends anchor and drug towards them. We just rafted to them for the night and untangled in the morning. Once in the Societies were were riding out a maramu (reinforced trades) in a channel on the E side of Huahine with some current. We drug maybe 10' in a strong gust, I think what really happened was the anchor fully set. I just let out another 20m of chain and we didn't move again. The last instance was in a rocky bottom bay on the Marquesan Island Ua Huka, tried three times and the anchor whould just hop over the rocks, you could feel it bouncing. We went out into deeper water and found some mud, the anchor set beautifully.
Our fine pointy ends really need the anchor removed in a seaway especially if going to windward. We lost a mantus anchor off our bow when it broke free of its lashings. We were pounding head on into the Papagayo winds in Central America (750nm took us 17 days). Cinderella would jump one wave and usually land on the back of the next one. Every once in a while the bow would slam a wave instead, and the big wide anchor shank up there was like a brake. The whole boat would lurch as it slowed down. We removed the anchor chain from the anchor so I could cap the hawse pipe and run the inner storm jib clutter free. Should have removed the anchor as well, lesson learned. Ended up relying on our danforth until we could get the mantus replaced in Costa Rica.
Mantus anchors have a ncie feature - you can unbolt and stow them for the long passages/races and get the weight off the bow and down low where it should be.
In the PNW we pretty much only used the danforth and chain/rope rode as that came with the boat. I defaulted to 5:1 scope ratio with that setup. We did manage to hook some rocks when we lost wind beating up the admiralty inlet against the tide. The tide turned so fast and hard that the rope rode wrapped around the keel and bent the anchor flukes. We were delivering the boat to Victoria for Swiftsure. I ended up using the anchor with the bent flukes a few times until we got a new one. Was very hard to get it to set, but it did eventually...
I delivered an Amel Super Maramu up to Opua NZ and tried to anchor in the same spot we always do, with a brand new shiny SS Rocna Vulcan. The anchor would not set. Tried 4 times and gave up and found a mooring. The next day we traded it in for the standard rocna, it set hard in the same place the first time. My take, any anchor offered in SS is meant to look pretty at the dock.
Pretty much all cruisers we come across out here are running some sort of spade as their primary. The owner of rocna anchors and his custom alloy expedition boat, Kiwiroa, is berthed two slips down from us at the moment. He has been down to antarctica and back, it sports a standard rocna primary anchor.
There are a few die hard CQR fans, but most people I have spoken to that have had them report dragging here and there, they are plows in the end, and plows are meant to plow.
I have also had issues with Bruce anchors in thick mud, the mud "balls up" and fowls the anchor, but in most other bottom types they work well.
$.02
-p
I have a very limited data set compared to most respondents here. When we first got our 30+ it had a (real) Bruce anchor which seemed to be a very common anchor on boats in the San Juans and Gulf Islands where this boat had been sailed for much of its life. It fit very neatly on the bow. However; in our favored anchorage in the hard sand of the Columbia River the Bruce failed to set 4 out of 5 times the first time we tried- it just dragged until we were so far out of position that we had to start over. Finally on the 5th go it set, but didn't feel very stable. I replaced it with a 17lb Mantus which in the same spot immediately sets, almost violently. We have never had any problems setting it since or moving an inch once set, although we have not had to deal with any real high winds at anchor yet. Water depth where we anchor is usually about 20 feet and we have 60 feet of chain and rope rode that we set at about 4:1 or 5:1. As you might imagine 60 feet of chain in the bow of the 30+ weighs it down a bit, but in our little river with huge currents, barges, freighters, pilings and sandbars, I want something that is going to secure the boat immediately in an emergency. If we were to spend more time at anchor I would probably upsize the Mantus one or two levels, but space is extremely limited on the bow and even the current Mantus doesn't fit well. I stow it in the expanded chain locker for now where it barely fits on top of the chain and rode.
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For anyone who likes to geek out on anchors here's a good followup article on a Spade failure.
www.morganscloud.com
Spade Anchor Failure, Update and Summary
A follow-up, with some significant changes, to our article on a failed Spade anchor.
www.morganscloud.com
p.gazibara
Member III
Looks like an interesting article, unfortunately blocked by a paywall. The image looks similar to my danforth that I bent when it was jammed in some rocks and the tide turned.For anyone who likes to geek out on anchors here's a good followup article on a Spade failure.
Spade Anchor Failure, Update and Summary
A follow-up, with some significant changes, to our article on a failed Spade anchor.
Thanks @Gaviate ! A simple solution to the chafing question was/is very welcome.
@p.gazibara -- It looks like I understand Ok re: 15kg Rocna/Matus/etc... but
--> What dia. and type of rode do you use (and, maybe, length/dia of chain?) For instance, if 1/2" 3-strand is too little, (at least per @Puget sailor, whose concern makes sense) then is 5/8" rode what you use? Particularly curious what you are using, since my boat is similar size to yours.
--> Any other E34 owners... how much rode (and what dia) can/do you cram into that (pretty small) anchor locker? I am not sure how I'd get 300' of 5/8" 3-strand in there; that stuff is big. The braided seems to lay down better, so maybe that would work.
Thanks again!
@p.gazibara -- It looks like I understand Ok re: 15kg Rocna/Matus/etc... but
--> What dia. and type of rode do you use (and, maybe, length/dia of chain?) For instance, if 1/2" 3-strand is too little, (at least per @Puget sailor, whose concern makes sense) then is 5/8" rode what you use? Particularly curious what you are using, since my boat is similar size to yours.
--> Any other E34 owners... how much rode (and what dia) can/do you cram into that (pretty small) anchor locker? I am not sure how I'd get 300' of 5/8" 3-strand in there; that stuff is big. The braided seems to lay down better, so maybe that would work.
Thanks again!
p.gazibara
Member III
The boat came with two bags of anchor rode. Both had roughly 30' of chain, and the rest (200-250?') three strand nylon rope. I don't recall the lengths anymore, Marina Hell Rey baywatch cut both of them and towed Cinderella to the Police dock. They claimed Cinderella was "drifting" in the only allowable anchorage area. They also reported that the anchors were too well set to lift so they had to cut the rode. Our garmin was updating the boat's position the entire time, interestingly our position hadn't changed until the boat was taken under tow. The rope diameter was different, one was 5/8" the other was 1/2". When we anchored in the PNW before we went cruising, we used the 5/8 rode. We often used both for bow/stern anchoring.
We bought 200' of 5/16 HT chain for our primary anchor when we left for cruising, has worked perfectly. I'm glad we weren't using that yet when they decided we were anchored in the way. Turns out we found ourselves in the middle of an unfortunate tiff between the local liveaboards and the baywatch.
-p